Dr. Steven Greer Interview on Art Bell Radio Program
June 17-18, 2002
"Cosmic Deception"

Art Bell's web site

Intro: (Art Bell) From the High Desert...I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be at this great land of ours, at whatever time you are -...I'm Art Bell, and I'm happy to be here and we've got a full night tonight. With Dr. Steven Greer [who] wrote "Cosmic Deception: Let the Citizen Beware" It came to me over the internet and I snatched it up - put it up last week, and tonight Dr. Greer is here to tell you all about it. Assuming that's [safely ?] I think that all of you don't have computers. If you're wondering what he means by "citizen beware" you're gonna know in a few minutes...then of course, the Australian teleportation story - oh my god, folks! Guess what? The Australians have teleported a laser beam. Now, while it's a long way from teleporting a human being, or even a solid object, it is incredible what they've done. They've sent a laser beam - deconstructed it, and reconstructed it across a lab. Now they say they can do this over a great distance, and eventually one day, just like Star Trek (pause). this may be the first - or is it the second step?- A big step toward that direction.

In a moment, Dr. Steven Greer. Used to be - was an emergency room physician, chairman of the Department of Emergency Medicine at Caldwell Memorial Hospital. He is founder [and] director of the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, the Disclosure Project, and most recently, Space Energy Access Systems. You've heard Dr. Greer here, I think, many times before. I hope so. If not, then you're gonna have to listen very closely to what's coming up. Dr. Greer has written "Cosmic Deception: Let the Citizen Beware". And so, without taking anymore time, we'll take care of "biz" and come right back to Dr. Greer, and if you didn't get a chance to read it, or you just wanna know what he means, then don't touch that dial!

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AB: Well, I guess you'd call this - I dunno - like a White Paper, maybe? Dr. Greer? "Cosmic Deception" Let the Citizen Beware" [It's] what I call a "white paper". What do you call it?

SG: Yes, that's it. It's a briefing paper, and a White Paper, and of course you know we've been doing these for many years for people in the pentagon and other ploces. I felt this one, I needed to put out right away to the public because of the level of threat that I feel that this kind of disinformation that's mentioned in the paper involved, and I think it's very important for people to understand the degree to which there has been for many decades an attempt to manipulate the UFO information in a certain direction - And that direction being decidedly sort of military response to the UFO problem.

AB: Well, if you're in the defense industry - if you're building bombs and missiles and stuff like that, then you probably - what is it? - a billion dollars a day I think we spend on our defense? And a billion dollars [would that be] a day? And that's a whole lot of money! President Eisenhower told us to beware [of the] military-industrial complex, and now we have enemies at the moment. But unless you have enemies, then you can't justify spending a billion dollars a day, can you?

SG: Well, I think it's even more than that. I think it's an entire question of a paradigm. You know what we have found is that - and the reason that I wrote this paper, "Cosmic Deception" is that - well of course, we know that there are UFOs that exist. We know that some of them are extraterrestrial. However, we also know that there are a number of them that are made by humans and that they have been used in countermeasures, or disinformation events, that include the attempted hoaxed extraterrestrial events that would appear frightening to people. And I think one of the problems with this is that there is a trillion dollar a year, global military and industrial laboratory complex that for many decades in some of the classified information that I have seen, have spoken of needing to create eventually, an enemy out in space to justify the continued expansion of those resources,but also to control the way people react to the phenomenon so it's a centralized and fear and control sort of response to the problem. And I think this is a very, very dangerous thing, and it's come to my attention that there will be an increasing effort to put that kind of information out into the public.

AB: All right, but you know, the bottom line to what you seem to be saying is: You believe it's possible, and it's a straight out question - Do you believe it's possible the military, or some cabal or group within the government, or above the government (laughs) whatever the case might be, actually would stage an event to scare the hell out of us and justify lots of money for space-type weapons and fighting aliens and that kind of thing? Yeah, is that really the bottom line?

SG: I think that's exactly what has been planned and in fact, this is something that - let's go through a little bit of the reason why we're making this assessment...

AB: Yeah, go ahead.

SG: I began interviewing people as early as 1992, that had information on this particular plan, and as recently as a year or two ago, we had Wernher Von Braun's spokesperson, Dr. Carol Rosin, who [was] spokesperson for Werner Von Braun for the last three years of his life, who said that he had specifically wraned that there would be an attempt to do that after there was a period of the cold war, that there would be a period of - rogue states, and that would be followed by global terrorism. [the] stage where we find ourselves today. And by the way, this testimony was acquired prior to 9-11, and that the trump card that would be played would be a threat from space, and that there would be an attempt to hoax and to frame a presence in outer space that would be a threat that we could justify a multi-trillion-dollar - eventually a multi-trillion-dollar buildup that would be completely rused, of course...

AB: What would happen politically, do you think, Doctor? In other words, not only would it mean lots of good military spending for us, but it would affect the world as well, and if somebody wanted to - I dunno - begin to get the world together under some sort of centralized - for some centralized purpose, wouldn't this fit that bill?

SG: Yes, this would be an excellent way of doing that, and in fact, you know that Ronald Reagan several times in the 1980's stated to the United Nations and to the Council on Foreighn Relations that - and I'm paraphrasing here - but I have a videotape of his speech where he says "You know, our job of creating unity in the world would be easier if we had a common alien threat to unite against" and I think that, unfortunately, there is this tendency instead of finding positive things to find unity over, perhaps some people have concluded it would be easier to create this kind of comraderie on an international basis, through fear. And unfortunately, this has worked in other scenarios. But in this one, this is the ultimate one, and I think it's a very, very dangerous path to go down. And I have to say that along the lines of this, you know there is a man that we had brought to Washington in 1997 along with about fifteen other military and intelligence witnesses to brief senior members of Congress, and Pentagon and White House officials that we had gathered in a closed meeting. This was April of '97 and this particular man who was an intelligence officer was going to tell the group that he had sat in on planning meetings where there had been a very black, super-secret group that had been planning the use of these so-called alien reproduction vehicles that we talk about - these ARV's - that would be, of course, made by humans, but look very much like UFOs and use an antigravity propulsion system to engage in actions including attacks on certain assets to make it look like we were under attack...

AB: How credible?

SG: This man was very credible, extremely credible, and his testimony has been corroborated to me by other people. I have a man who is an Air Force Office of Special Investigations who knows of this plan. I have a gentleman who has been "read into" other technologies that can simulate these kinds of events. You know, when I first heard it, with this paper I wrote, I openly talk about "Gee, what if somebody at this time last year came and gave you the scenario of what happened on 9-11. Most people, even if you were a writer for a TV show, or a novel...

AB: Too [illegible comment] Too far out!

SG: Too far out. This is Crazy. And when I first started hearing these things, I said "Oh, come on!" Then I met a man - a very interesting gentleman whose testimony has also been corroborated by others, who was "read into" - that's the term used in the military - a very top secret technology that involves electronic warfare systems that could literally involve the control of people's awareness - their state of awareness - and their experiences. And that these have been used to induce what some people would call abductions. Things that look like and extraterrestrial experience, but are hoaxed. This is not to say that people haven't had actual extraterrestrial contact. It's just to say that there's a whole lot of disinformation that's been put out there and - one insider told me back in 1994, after I met with President Clinton's first CIA director, that, in fact this whole thing is hidden in plain sight, and that the activity that's been going on is - if you exposed sort of this wizard of Oz phenonenon I call it, where there's some people behind some curtains pulling a lot of levers deceiving peopole, that you - no one - would believe it! That the deception is a more implausible though true explanation than having people believe it's actually all extraterrestrials. So there's an enormous amount of disinformation and I liken it to taking a - you know you have a few gold nuggets of extraterrestrial events that have happened -- not a few, but a large number. But, those have been hidden by covering them - laying on top of them- litereally tons and tons of fool's gold! And unfortunately, not enough people have been doing assays of this thing, and I think it's a big problem.

AB: Here's a question for you Doctor, You know, and I certainly believe that UFOs are really on occasion extraterrestrial craft visiting earth, so to me that means that our government, our military at some level they know they're here, and they're either frightened of them because they don't know, or they wish to figure a way to defend against them because they assume - as our military would - they're probably hostile, or at least could be hostile. That would be a military assumption, to be on the safe side. And so, maybe, they would stage this actually - they could believe - in our own best interest so that we would begin to develop the technology that we might truly need.

SG: Well, you know, I - this is what I thought initially, but in actuality, it's a little more complicated. I think you're right that a lot of the people who are cogs in that machine do think exactly as you described, but in reality, the people who are really the insiders know that there's no objective threat from outer space, but that it's an incredible opportunity in terms of propoganda that if it's used in the right way, that can greatly expand a sort of a centralized, militaristic kind of control mechanism over many, many people. For example, right now, there are projects that would like to eventually spend an enormous amount of funding on putting active warfare systemes and weapons systems in place. Most people feel that's a reasonable thing to do if you're shooting down someone else's ICBM. Unfortunately, I've got folks who've worked on projects where these systems have been designed primarily to look not down toward the earth, but out into space, and in fact have tracked and targeted extraterrestrial vehicles, and the people who have been personally present at these sort of things have told me that they saw there was no threat coming from that direction and that there is sort of an "agent provocateur" -- a tendency towards to provoke a situation. And I think these are the kinds of games [or] gamesmanship - I might call it brinksmanship - that's very, very dangerous. And I think the world because - you know it's so easy to motivate people through fear and hysteria and that kind of thing, that the world is very vulnerable to this kind of manipulation. And I know that the first head of the Defense Intelligence Agency that I briefed - you know I brought this issue up - that there was a serious problem with senior military people who were not inside this sort of rogue and black operation, being caught unawares - and certainly our own political leaders, but even very senior military leaders could be caught unawares by what has been called a deception.

AB: All right, let's imagine a deception for a second. We had, of course, the Phoenix Lights sightings which...

SG: Yes, I was there when that happened.

AB: There you are. So we had that. But you know that came and it was actually got to be a pretty big deal in the mainstream media, and it went, and it didn't change our policy in any way. Now, how big of a deception? Describe for me how big a deception it would have to be to begin moving in the direction you believe they wanna move?

SG: Well, it would be very easy. For example, we have not only space and a high-atmospheric holographic system, [the] holograms that could deceive people, but we also have these alien reproduction vehicles that are capable of going to space and back, and that do function silently with antigravity systems that have been manufactured there at the north base of Edwards for many years. Lockheed and Northrup, and others have worked on these and these could be used in a scenario where, for example, certain National Security assets within the traditional government were targeted, such as satellite systems or other assets, and it would look to everyone observing it like we were under attack by some very esoteric spacecraft from another world! Now, this kind of thing, I'm afraid, when you've got a rogue group of people that are not being supervised by the appropriate authorities within the constitutional chain of command, and I think quite frankly this includes the U.S. President - the current U.S. President as well as past presidents - that there is a serious threat here that is real! I would not have believed this myself if I hadn't come across so many people who have seen parts of this, and it's sort of a mosaic that you've got to put together. You can go all the way back. You mentioned this thing about the Australian laser system.

AB: That's right.

SG: I have a witness - and it's in this book, Disclosure, that we put together - and he's someone - with his name, rank and serial number who is in the Canadian Air Force, and his name is Fred Threlfall. And he, in 1953 - before I was born! - witnessed a solid object teleported from one room to another with this advanced electronic device in Canada before I was born, almost fifty years ago! Now imagine what kinds of "toys" there are within these covert classified projects,and the degree to which many people and even very well-placed black projects at the Pentagon and elsewhere may not be aware of these other projects and how vulnerable that makes them to false assumptions about something that could happen. I think already this has been going on. I think there is an enormous amount of false information about extraterrestrials in the open literature in the media and in the UFO research community because many of the people I've dealt with and talking to people who've had experiences with abductions, clearly remember and recall military people and military helicopters present during their experience. This is usually covered up and whitewashed in the UFO community. It's something that's been reported for over twenty years!

AB: Well, a lot of people would say it's rediculous to imagine the United States would either start something or stage something but - gee whiz! - Remember the Gulf of Tonkin!

SG: Well, I called this back in the early papers I wrote on our website disclosureproject.org. I've got a link to a paper called "When Disclosure Serves Secrecy" and it goes into this whole concept of sort of a "Cosmic Gulf of Tonkin". And it wouldn't be the U.S. Government or the U.S. military as you and I think of it. I want to be very clear! This is a very clandestine rogue group that has been managing this issue...

AB: Doctor, we're at the bottom of the hour, so hold on. In other words, not the U.S. government as we know it and love it, or hate it - probably more of the latter. I'm Art Bell.

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(Following bottom of the hour commercial break)

Art Bell: Why, our government do something deceptive? OUR government?! That's just too incredible to even think about! Our GOVERNMENT - doing something deceptive! My God, think about it. Could it really be? (commercial break)

AB: [we're back with] Steven M. Greer from CSETI, and I've got a couple of really important questions for Dr. Greer. Dr. Greer, first of all, my question would be - and this is for everybody who's listening - I agree they exist, but, you know, I don't know that I'm comfortable personally that they are completely benign. How can you be so sure?

SG: Well, I mean, I think that one of the points I make on this is the same question that was asked of me at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in 1993, when my military guys and I went there to meet with the head of the foreign Air and Space Science Technology Division of Wright-Patterson, which was the division the Roswell remains had been sent to and a colonel there at the time asked me and brought this question up and I said, "Look. Given the things that I know that you guys have done, the fact that you and I are still breathing the free air of Earth would indicate that they're not hostile." That if they were - imagine this - your ability to travel through interstellar and "inderdimensional" space at multiples of the speed of light with enormous knowledge of the fabric of space and time, and we have started going into space. We have nuclear weapons that can destroy entire worlds. If they were hostile in the sense that we understand hostility, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation tonight. And I think that whether or not they are all in favor of the things that we are doing at this point is another question. I think probably not, and I think there are probably competing agendas. For example,we may want to go out into space and do some things that others may not want us to do until we've learned to do so peacefully.

AB: But, Doctor, isn't it possible that their intent toward us could be something less than - you know - immediate mortality? It could be genetic, it could be - there could be something else that we would not necessarily consider positive, short of quick death?

SG: Well, there's - this may be true, but I don't see any evidence for it. Everytime I interview someone who is really deep on the inside who's had a lot of exposure to the subject, they just shake their heads and say "No, there's no evidence of these sorts of things." So as much as we might like to fantasize about them, because we kind of enjoy that kind of conflict as a people and as a culture--

AB: (chuckles)

SG:--And I think we're rather addicted to these things. But I don't see any evidence for it. Now what I DO see evidence for - and this speaks to this directly - I interviewed two years ago a man who was too afraid to come forward at the time, and we're working right now with a very prominent public interest lawyer in Washington to put together affidavits for this kind of man and to secure their testimony. This man had been an Army ranger and he had been on a special mission, a very super-secret mission that was quite unrelated to everything else he had ever done in the military, where he went in on one of these special vehicles and literally abducted other military personnel to make them think that they had been abducted and abused by an extraterrestrial.

AB: Oh my goodness!

SG: and when I first heard this, he thought this would have been shocking to me and I said "Well, no," because this was in the year 2000, and I said, "I already have several people like you I've already interviewed who have seen that and more." And he said," Well!...You know there are a whole lot of people out there who have been selected very carefully to go through this kind of an abduction, and they think that there is a threat out in space and we're doing it so that they will think that." And I said,"Yes, I've heard this from other people." For example, some of the people who were present and involved in the abduction at three in the morning or so, out of New York City of Perez de Cuellar, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, made to look like an alien encounter, when it was done completely by these para-governmental, super-secret projects using some very andvanced systems. What I remind people of, is that what you might have heard of on CNN is probably five to ten generations late from what exists within these super-secret projects. Imagine! 1953, we were teleporting things! Imagine - 1958! I personally interviewed the man who invented electronics so that people could remotely view distant places in space. People who are working with very advanced electronic and electro-magnetic systems capable of doing all kinds of things that would just make your hair curl that sounds like something out of Star Trek but, unfortunately, actually do exist and can be used - and in fact have been used in these sort of deceptive undertakings.

AB: Allright. Well, try this one on for size. You mentioned CNN. Well, what about CNN, say ABC, CBS, all the networks in fact, reporting as the last story of the night something like this: "The defense department today announced they had seen the destruction of two of their defense satellites by what they regard as possible extraterrestrial life" and there'd be a little giggle He He He He He. So in other words, the defense department is saying "Two little green men destroyed two of our satellites." In other words, haven't they ruined their own deception? It's gonna have to be awfully big for anybody to do less than give it the usual "kicker" story at the end with a little chuckle.

SG: Well, you know, it's interesting. I once thought this as well, but it actually is running on several paths - pathways - on a parallel basis. In other words, contemporaneously. One of them is the one that you mentioned which is, all the "tee hee" ridicule, "little green men", and, of course, I've been exposed to plenty of that being in the position I'm in as head of the Disclosure Project. On the other hand, there's this other thread that runs through this, which is very xenophobic things that are put out there that are hoaxed or exaggerated for the purpose of creating and instilling fear in people which seems to be more along the agenda of - not the 1953 CIA document that talked about having Disney Studios make cartoons about UFOs to ridicule them, but seems to be more along the lines of the 1960's report from Iron Mountain, New York, where it was discussed that we would have to create a threat from outer space to justify the continued growth and expansion of a trillion-dollars-plus military-industrial-laboratory and intelligence complex on this planet. So I think that there are several things going on and these are not necessarily mutually exclusive strategies. Actually, I think they actually serve various purposes at various times.

AB: Now, on the other hand, if they were to announce that a military installation had been destroyed - with saucer sightings - that there'd been some kind of beam from a saucer and they'd have to have photographs and there would be destruction and there probably would be death. Now that would mean that you would have to reach out and kill to create this deception. Do you think they would be prepared to go that far?

SG: Oh, I think they already have done this, and in fact, I'm quite certain of the fact that there's an arm of this group that's extremely lethal. I kind of half-jokingly call it "Murder Incorporated" that has, without any doubt in my mind at all, engaged in extreme behavior up to and including the taking of life. I don't believe that this is something that they would flinch at. You know one of the things that I think the power that's derived here is the deception. If people can get to the bottom of what's going on, and unfortunately, it's not as neat and tidy as people are told when they look at this stuff just superficially. There are extraterrestrial events that take place, but there's also an enormous number of events that look extraterrestrial that I'm quite convinced are of man-made origin and are done so for deceptive purposes.

AB: Let me ask you a personal question, Doctor. My program is now the second largest program in terms of the numbers of affiliates of any program in the country - right next to Rush.

SG: Right.

AB: OK - UM - and in fact, in terms of hours spent listening, my program is the number one program in America - hours spent listening. That's something a lot of people don't know. Now, is it reasonable to ask you - if they didn't want this discussed, particularly the kind of thing we're talking about right now - and these are people who would reach out and touch with murder if they had to, why do you think my program - afterall, if they didn't want me here, I wouldn't be here, would I?

SG: Well, I don't know if that's necessarily the case. I think there are a lot of things here that are protected. I mean, for example, long before we started talking about any of these things openly, publicly, we had meetings with folks at the Pentagon who I call the "white hats" which are 99%. I mean the vast majority of our armed services and intelligence community are actually appalled at these kind of rogue operations and I think that we began to talk with them and there is a growing - not a diminishing but a growing - amount of support in those quarters for what we are doing and for getting this information out.

B: So maybe I'm - [illegible]

SG: In other words, there's an umbrella of a protection that extends around some of this at this point that didn't exist five or ten years ago, when, quite frankly three people I know working on this issue with me were murdered. And I think that - you know - it's a very serious issue [to] begin [to] entertain what has to be put in place. I think we've got a lot of that in place,but I think where the world is vulnerable and where our leadership, both military and civilian leadership, are vulnerable is the contagion of hysteria that could attend certain events and what my sole purpose in discussing this at this point as far out as it may seem is because I've seen too much evidence. I've talked to too many independent, corroborating insiders who've seen parts of this "plan" and including this gentleman that we brought to Washington in "97, who had literally sat in on planning sessions where this deceptive plan had been in great detail discussed. I think that it's very important for people to understand that knowledge is very powerful, that the value of a surprise deception is reduced by being able to discuss it, and I think that's why we're doing it. Quite frankly, I think that's why we're being allowed to do it because there are a lot of folks. Now remember after I met with CIA director Woolsey I was - two separate people told me that a third of the so-called MJ-12 group, or secret group were supportive of what we were wanting to do.

AB: And could it be that I serve? I serve a useful purpose?

SG: That's correct, I think you serve a useful purpose and I think that there are growing numbers of people within these very secret programs who did not even know what a lot of the agendas were that they were serving because it's so compartmented, and I think once they found out what it is, that there's a large and growing number of people who support what we're trying to do with getting the truth out about this.

AB: Doctor, if these are relatively benign beings, then why are we shooting at their craft?

SG: You know, I asked back in the early '90's. I asked a Navy intelligence guy who had personally witnessed one of these events and I asked him why are we doing that? He says "Well, you know how dogs go around and pee on the corners of your property and mark their territory?" He said "It's just that simple. It's that stupid, and that arrogant, and that simple." And I said "You've got to be kidding!" He says, "No." I mean a lot of this - people get too grand in their thinking. Imagine this: we have for example witnesses who were on your show when your back was out. The gentleman George --

AB : Noory

SG: Noory. Hosted us, who corroborated these objects hovering over ICBMs and taking sixteen to twenty of them offline on a single evening.

AB: Oh yeah!

SG: We have other people who have testified that when we tried to do certain things out in space, that they have not allowed us to do it because they didn't want these kind of weapons out there. Well, this might make some people very frustrated, and [illegible] human, and I think that there is a bit of a - little bit of a tiff going on there that has not been supervised and looked at very thoroughly. And see here's one of the dangers that these guys who were present at those events didn't feel that the Extraterrestrials were hostile. But they were trying to send us a message about OUR hostility. But you can see how that can be misinterpreted in these hermetically sealed compartments that are only looking at this issue through sort of military colored glasses, or conflict-colored glasses and this is why disclosure is so important. It's such a dangerous thing for this kind of extreme secrecy. You know, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, the first CIA director in 1960 or '61 wrote a letter after he left the position if CIA director stating that the secrecy surrounding UFOs was a threat to the National Security. He never said UFOs were a threat, he said the SECRECY surrounding the subject was a threat to the National Security.

AB: Fascinating!

SG:And this is a man who stuck his neck [out] way back there. You know, I was a five year old kid when he said that!

AB: So then if you read between those lines, what do you read? The secrecy surrounding the UFOs being kept secret. That whole thing is a threat to National Security - not the UFOs but the secrecy is a threat.

SG: Right

AB: So read between the lines, what does he mean?

SG: What he's saying is that the people such as President Eisenhower, who we now know through the testimony of Brigadier General Steven Lovekin, who [is] a disclosure project witness, and others were being kept in the dark - that the people in the National military command authority, the people who are in senior levels of the Pentagon, that I have personally briefed, who have been appalled at what they have been denied access to. I personally briefed one of the heads of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff who was told he didn't have a need to know, after he located a compartmented MJ-12 operation and - I mean - these things are a threat to the national security because of the element of deception that can take place, but also because they don't know what they're dealing with when they inadvertently come across these things. And they aren't adequately briefed. And often very dangerous actions are taken. So the extreme secrecy surrounding this and these sort of extreme compartmentalization way beyond a normal black project.

AB: But Dr. Greer, imagine --

SG: Because [of] the danger to the national security.

AB: But imagine our biggest national security people sitting around a table, maybe with some scientific advisors, or whatever, and as you've pointed out yourself - these would be beings who cross - you know - more light years than we could even imagine very quickly, and could probably dispose of an entire world, and you're sitting there making a decision to shoot one of these craft down now.

SG: (laughs)

AB: Ah, you know, that would be some conversation!

SG: It is, but I think they know they're essentially not hostile and that this is the other point, They would like to see situations evolve where they could justify a conflict, and I think this is what is so dangerous. I mean,you have to know that there are enormous vested interests not only in terms of finances and funding, but in terms of worldview, paradigm, a sort of a way of controlling the way things are through centralized fear-oriented military control as opposed to other more positive things. This is not in any way to slam the legitimate defense needs of the United States or other countries.

AB: Oh no. FEAR! Fear is a great motivator. Look at what 9-11 has accomplished - My god. It's slammed the economy, It's - I can't even begin to detail all it's actually done, other than bring down the buildings and hit the Pentagon. It's stunned the entire nation.

SG: Well, unfortunately there are people who I think would be happy to see other scenarios unfold that would be very frightening to people in the long run! I'm not saying this is gonna happen next month, but it could, and when I had someone call me who is attached to one of the wealthiest media people in the world, and is that person's personal representative in the media and say that we're doing in the hundreds of millions of dollars thing to put out information that'll be very frightening to people on this subject of UFOs and extraterrestrials, I sat up and took notice! When I then heard another person talking to me about a scenario that could be hoaxed along these lines, it became very, very disconcerting to me. When I say the reason I decided to write this paper "Cosmic Deception" is to remind people to stay calm, to look very skeptically at things that happend and to be sure and begin to look at who would benefit from scenarios that would be frightening.

AB: Without naming the witnesses, Doctor, I am curious. It is interesting. How many sources have conveyed this possibility to you separately - separate sources?

SG: Well, I have a whole list of these that we're working. It's around a dozen now, of very serious people.

AB: Really?

SG: and people whose credentials checked. And like I say, when I first started hearing these things, I thought like most people "Gee!" You know, most people reported these experiences that quacked like a duck, it looked like a duck, it waddled like a duck, it had to be a duck! It turned out that wasn't true, and between 1992 and now, in the last ten years I have found too much evidence to support that there is something very fishy going on and that there is an attempt to manipulate this subject in a direction that puts us on a war footing for reasons that are obvious - if you begin to analyze who would benefit.

AB: Allright, but last - we're about out of time - last question. What would you want people to do?

SG: a couple of things. First of all, just be aware. On your site and on our website disclosureproject.org they can read this assessment. They can also read this other thing "When Disclosure Serves Secrecy" which goes into greater detail on that. I think the other thing is that people can help us identify more of these direct witnesses to this deception. We are actively looking to put under affidavit people who have knowledge of this scheme and who are willing to come forward, preferably identified, but if they are not identified, as long as we can have them vouched for we will work with them. So people can contact me at our website disclosureproject.org and get us that information of these sorts of people, plus victims of these events as well as people who have had firsthand knowledge.

AB: You got it, Doctor! We're out of time. Thank you. Good night.

SG: And Happy Birthday!

AB: Oh, thank you very much. Goodnight.

SG: Goodnight.


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